PART III: MORE TIME . . .
Tell me a little bit more about . . .you're talking about
going to Africa, what trips have you made to Africa and how has
that [affected your views]?
Is years we been talking about Africa. We write about Africa.
Talk to people about Africa, but we have never been to Africa
until recently. Well, not recently, 1982 was the first trip we
go -- went to Nigeria. [When] we went to Ethiopia, that I think
changed my whole concept of nuff ting even within Rasta -- just
going there.
Did you go on that 82 trip, also to Ethiopia?
No, I went to Ethiopia two years ago. That trip to me revolutionize
my whole thinking. It is almost like Malcolm X going to Mecca.
Come back and say, bwai, him whole concept of Muslim change. Well
to me, that is what that trip do to me. Going to Ethiopia, my
whole concept of Rastafari and me attitude towards certain concepts
change totally.
Give me an example of where you were and where you are after.
For instance, I could a see clearly how Rome influence my belief,
even though I was a Rasta. Because there is a lot of Roman concepts
that is embedded in us that we really believe say is an African
concept. And when you go to Ethiopia, you see it clear. Because
when you look into Ethiopia, you see the Roman influence, even
in the orthodox religion. And that is very hard for a man inna
Jamaica to stomach. Fe say, Rome really influence Ethiopia religiously.
When I go to Ethiopia, I go to Ethiopia and look and I go to all
of the famous places that them say you must go. Lalibela, Axum
and ting. My whole concept of Rasta change. My whole perception
of 'what is dis ting me a say fe years?' This Rastafari concept.
And when me hear certain people talk about Rasta and wey me do.
As I said before, that is [like] when I read and hear say Malcolm
X go a Mecca and come back and him start to look pon tings different.
Well, the same way it happen to me when I got to Ethiopia. Me
start to see Rasta in a different light. Me start to examine me
beliefs. Me start to examine this Ethiopian ting, dis Roman ting,
dis Jesus ting, dis God concept, dis Haile Selassie. Wha me a
say when me say Haile Selassie? And I feel say, it mek me stronger.
Cause now, even though me could a did talk, like Mutabaruka can
talk, but now, me can talk more about me understanding of Rasta.
And that is now what we project pon de program that it cause a
whole heap of conflict. And that, as you say now, it make a whole
heap of things change through that one program, seen? That trip
to me, as I said, is one of the main influences on mi life. Wey
change turn round everything inna mi mind. Bout Rastafari, the
struggle of Jesus and Rome, and Haile Selassie and ting.
Then now, we go Senegal, and then me go, Ghana. We go Ghana twice
inna two weeks too. So Ghana now. Me see certain things inna Ghana,
never have no spiritual effect pon me. It have a physical effect.
Is like Ethiopia is the spiritual and Ghana is the physical. In
other words, if I did want to search for mi inner self, I wouldn't
go a Ghana. But if I want to materialistically, be an African,
I'd a go a Ghana. So Ghana is like a gateway to me, to Africa.
If you want to call it a certain way, Ghana is like the gate to
heaven, but Ethiopia is really heaven. But we nah look pon it
as heaven as how people would say, utopian kind of Heaven. Ghana
seem to be a place where you can go deh and go mek life. Like
inna Jamaica. It more Jamaica. Like a Jamaican who go deh a feel
out a place. Ghana to me is a place weh, if tomorrow morning me
have certain portion of money, and we should really do it, me
a just go deh. Go set up mi business and do certain ting. But
in the spirit now, if ya a search fi that awakening, you couldn't
go a Ghana. Ya haffe go a Ethiopia. Even within Ethiopia, me could
a analyze within myself, say Rome influence Ethiopia, even the
church, which is the main influence in the whole of Ethiopia.
Rome have it gripping deh, that you, as a Rasta haffe wake up.
Even you, even though you say you conscious, but Rome embed something
inna you to a level where, is almost like you haffe go just scrape
off yourself, your mind, and start over again. When you see and
when you think pon all the thing them, weh Rome do. Because here
you are inna de oldest empire pon Earth, but when you look you
say, 'But bloodclot! A Roman ting dis!' Virgin Mary and dis and
dat. How this reach clear up on the highest mountain and ting.
You go to Jamaica and you tell a Rastaman and dem vex with you.
So when we look now and we start to say, the revolution and the
evolution of a man like me now, who a search and carry certain
consciousness, belief system. You really wan go tell a man is
make him seh, but bloodclot Muta, how you a tink dat? How you
a change? And ya say, but change is inevitable. And is not even
just change, evolution. Because we still see Haile Selassie, but
we a evolve it to the level now where Haile Selassie is even higher
now than God, because God is something inna your mind and Haile
Selassie is more real than just your mind. Haile Selassie is both
mind and body. You haffe relate to Haile Selassie not just a mind,
but what has he done to the African continent. He's the most respected
head of state ever in Africa. All European nations bow to Haile
Selassie.
You're saying you find that respect everywhere in Africa?
No, not what people think of Haile Selassie, is what I
What you know that Haile Selassie did?
No, I don't know that.
Okay, I'm sorry, keep explaining . . .
I a say, what I see Haile Selassie do in Earth to me is what I
would a think say, this is Christ. So just like when a man relate
and say Jesus, look what Jesus do, him is the Christ, I a say,
what Haile Selassie do, he is the Christ. A Christ is not a man.
Christ is a way. Is an idea. Right? And men can manifest, just
like how Buddha, dem say Buddha manifest the Christ, but him don't
say Christ. Dem say Buddha, or Hare Krishna, but you don't say
Christ, cause you're not in the English speaking world. In the
English speaking world, you refer to that spirituality as the
Christ. I a seh now, the Christ to I, I can see it in the works
of Haile Selassie. So now, I am not now dealing with an object
as God, cause that is what we were taught. We were taught to say
that we emphasize the object. I am now saying now. The way. And
the way now manifest in man. But because I am not The Man, I would
have to link now, a man with my past and my present. And when
I study Haile Selassie, that is where is see the link. Because
I couldn't study Jesus, because there is no record of Jesus past
and link, more than them was coming from a virgin. If you have
a virgin birth, there is no link with the past. Because you must
haffe have a man and woman fe link your past. If you don't have
a man and a woman fe link you're past, you cyaan study the past.
You don't have no present. There is no presence of Jesus in my
lifetime. Is only here I hear about this mon. And I can tink bout
many tings about dis mon. Now Haile Selassie is to me definite.
I don't have to tink anything. I can look on videos. I can read.
I can hear people who have experienced him. I can do all of these
things. And then I can go into myself and evaluate what is what
and what is not. And separate the myth from the reality and come
to a conclusion. And that is what we do.
On the level of your diet, you're a vegetarian, you don't eat
dairy products . . .
No animal products, me don't cook neither.
How is that part of the way?
The part of the way now is after you experiencing. You start to
develop other things. We go up inna de hills and we live fe years
inna de hills and we start to experience thing. And we start to
experience how dis thing can work. Is not just saying it. I never
see Rasta through reggae. I was not a reggae artist when I become
a Rasta. I was a Rasta first. Reggae come late, late, late dung
[down] inna my Rasta life. Is not like Bob Marley change me concept
of life. I never see Rasta through Bob Marley music. I never start
to write poems because of Bob Marley.
Can not the way be seen through the music?
Yea, of course. I'm just trying to show you how I come to. . .
I just show you now how I experience like, even not eating [meat].
I did have to experience certain things. And I experience now
seh, the killing ting fe survive, when nothing don't harm you,
is ridiculous. I haffe go evaluate that now inna myself. I say
but wait, stop and think, why eat meat?
If you don't eat it, you don't die(!)
Why you a eat it? It a ridiculous concept. Eating meat to me,
is a ridiculous concept. Just like smoking cigarettes is a ridiculous
concept. For me, for a man to put a ting inna him mouth and a
(makes a smoke puffing/blowing sound) . . . is ridiculous. I mean,
animals don't do them ridiculous thing. I don't see animals do
nothing that is not conducive to them way of life. Everything
an animal do is to survive. And to keep it in context of his way
of life. Cigarettes have nothing to do with [man's] way of life,
other than something that man develop inna him quest fe be different
from other animals.
But some animals do eat [other animals] . . .
Yea, but that is keep between the animal way. Animals eat meat,
but you have animals weh don't eat meat.
I'm just using your own example. . .
It don't matter to me if animals eat meat or don't eat meat. I
say man never make fe eat meat. But him develop that through time,
you nah see't? And through time now him start to make it like
this is what is supposed to happen. Just like when him smoke a
cigarette. Him never make fe smoke cigarette, but him start fe
smoke cigarette and it come like dis is the norm now, so I a say
now, you haffe look into all these things. You start looking into
it and you start to experience. You start to test yourself. Can
I do without this, can I do without that? Can man do without cooked
food? You don't haffe kill nothing really. Not even vegetable
ya haffe kill. You go [and] eat fruit here, ya nah fe eat nuttin
pon de ground, ya just eat everything offa de tree. Original.
The Bible first did say, I give you all the fruits and the herbs
of the field fe meat. So meat is not really flesh you know. So
we go through them process deh. And we haffe top turn and twist
round everything inna we mind.
So the vegetarianism in a way, seems to me as, you take from
the earth the least that you need.
Yes. It's a natural progression mon. A spiritual mon, a mon who
is in him consciousness, would eventually stop eating meat. It's
just a natural thing. There's no two way about it. Animal blood
and spirituality don't go together. A mon cyaan tell me seh him
a mix up him flesh. Even the Native Americans, them [who] would
do it, them apologize fe doing it. If you check the prayers of
the Native Americans, him kill the animal but him apologize. Even
within that context, him know seh something going down that is
not human. Is animalistic, is not human. So we haffe return to
that humanness inna us that make life meaningful. We haffe return
to understanding the feminine. We haffe understand Mother Earth.
Understand just life Rasta.
From your food haffe run weh from you is not your food. Simple.
If your food is your food, it's supposed to stay there with you.
And if you is a human being, you're supposed to take that into
consideration. You is not a hunter, praying pon other creatures
and tings. So what if a man get eaten by a fish? If you deh inna
de sea and you trouble the fish inna dem own environment now,
and the fish eat you. You deserve fe get eaten. I hope that one
day men will create some mutation of fish that fish can come pon
land and eat man.
Could happen (!) . . .
(laughs). That is why I say I hope for that day. People will see
the ridiculousness of going into the sea to take out the fish
fe eat it. Man can do without the fish. There is so much things
inna de sea him can eat. Dulce? Kelp. Seaweed. I mean all of them
things in the sea you can eat. Irish moss, you know?
[At the point, I was asking Muta about a kumina woman in St.
Thomas, the parish adjacent to St. Andrew to the east]
Is that part of [Jamaica] . . . People say that it's the most
African part of Jamaica.
Obeah, yea. So them say. Them say them link obeah and ting with
Africa. Through dung deh so de people seh, deh a obeah dung deh.
Dem seh is more African.
But you don't see that as essentially African?
Obeah?
Yea.
Yea mon! Obeah African, but it turn trickery now. So it nah African
again. Is some African weh a work trick now. Is not African weh
a work obeah. Nuttin no wrong with obeah. Just some can't pass
obeah, not it's trickery. So is not Africans doing obeah, is some
Africans tricking people into saying is obeah them a do. But obeah
and voodoo is African. But dem nah do obeah and voodoo ya so now,
dem do trick. Dem tell ya seh dem can make dis happen and you
get back ya mon fi you. All dem ting deh is trick. Seen? So we
no really relate to it.
Is there something else of that part of the island is more
African?
Well, people say that. People say that. People always, anytime
them talk about part of the island a certain way, dem use dat.
Just like a mon say when you come from Mucco, inna Clarendon,
dem say ya stupid. But is not really true. Not everybody come
from Mucco stupid, but people say, "where you come from,
Mucco?" That way people used to cuss people inna Jamaica.
Well is that them a say, bwai, me go a St. Thomas go get obeah
fi you. Some kinda have dem link deh, link daweh deh. Just like
a mon say him go a Tivoli [Gardens] and get a bad gunman. [As
though] Everybody a gunman in Tivoli.
End of interview for April 3, 1998.
Beginning of interview, Sunday, August 5th, 1998
I listened back to the interview from Friday. I wanted
to make clear that I understood what you're saying about one particular
thing about going to Ethiopia. You were talking about how that
experience for you, how it was like Malcolm X going to Mecca.
And I took that because you said that it turned your mind, and
you also saw the Roman influence in Ethiopia and you talked about
trying to really strip away and examine the things about yourself
that you may have thought were really African concepts that may
have in fact been Roman concepts. Did that cause you to continue
to want to reject the those concepts, or did that cause you to
thing that there were Roman concepts that were valid.
No, reject it. When we see the Roman concept, we see a whole heap
of things that, for instance in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church,
there is a lot of influence . . . that is held to be Ethiopian,
that . . . is Roman. A lot of de dogmas in the Ethiopian Orthodox
Church is Roman, but because it is from Ethiopia, and because
it is covered up with Ethiopian influences, the core of it is
Roman. Jesus is a Roman concept. Is a Greek-Roman concept. It
don't have no relevance to the mon who live two-thousand years
ago. For instance, . . . there is no word for the man that lived
two-thousand years ago in Amharic. The Ethiopian Orthodox Church
used the Greek word Jessos Christos. Jessos Christos is a Greek
word, but it is used in the church to represent Christ, Jesus
Christ. So, one would wonder how such an influence is held in
Ethiopia, when Ethiopia is such an ancient, ancient place.
Plus there is other things, but is a lengthy, lengthy . . . is
a next interview.
Yea, I'm sure you've done Cutting Edge shows on this.
Yea mon, we have done a lot of reasoning. Right now sometime we
are even under fire the Rastafari community, because we speak
what we see and what we believe, what understand to be the truth.
There is lot of misconceptions about Ethiopia. And there is a
lotta things Rastafari things Rastafari switch from Judeo-Christianity
to Rastafari. In other words, there is no difference in a lotta
the beliefs in Rasta with Judeo-Christianity. Christianity is
myth, is mythology, and a lot of it has enslaved black people
mentality to the true essence of what blackness is all about.
I get the vibe that some people who talk Rasta also accept
Christ in a . . .
Christian way. Well, yea. I accept Christ, because Christ to me
is a concept. As we say [day before] yesterday, is not a man.
That concept dwells within man and it moves from one man to the
next man to many men. To say that Jesus Christ is the only begotten
son is a Christian concept, political concept. It has nothing
to do with, what is dis mon representing on Earth and how he reveal
what Christ is all about. Even himself he say even before Abraham
was Siam??? So one would have to add what is he speaking of when
he says 'before Abraham was Siam.' Is he talking about his physical
being man? Or is he talking about the ideas that he was professing.
I see Christ as a way. Is an understanding toward a greater meaning
in life. Maybe you wouldn't use it in China as the same word,
but the idea is there.
The fundamental irony with Christians that I have a problem
with is that you have to accept Him instead of his way.
Him! Yes! That is the problem. Well, you see Rastas now switch
that to Haile Selassie which is a danger.
Saying that you have to accept . . .
Haile Selassie, or you're in a problem. So we come away with a
different conclusion about that.
That seems like a statement that would vex some Rastas.
Of course, it vex a whole heap of Rasta.
How long have you held that view that you don't have to accept
. . .
Well now is I accept Haile Selassie. I no [have] business about
a next mon. I no business if a next mon want say Haile Selassie
is this and Haile Selassie is that. I a say Haile Selassie. That
is my personal interpretation. Haile Selassie say a mon religion
is his personally thing. Seen? So I don't care if a next mon wan
say Haile Selassie. I nah go tell him seh him have to say it.
No, but you just said that saying 'Haile Selassie, you have
to accept him as your savior,' that would be the danger, parallel
to doing the same thing with Christ. . .
With Christ. I a say now. I not going to tell a next man that
him have to accept it. I a say, Haile Selassie is my Christ.
Your way.
Yea.
So, what I was asking you is then how long have you had that
concept of [Haile Selassie]?
From me a teenager. From we used to go school. We a say Rasta
from school days. Maybe 18, 19, now we is 45.
I'm going to jump around to a couple different subjects here.
The issue of censorship in Jamaica is an interesting one. As many
problems as we have in the United States, we don't say, such and
such song is banned from the radio per se, but I know that you've
had a run into it with the People's Court. I wondered what you
had to comment about the issue of artistic censorship.
To me what I see happening now. The more they ban the record is
the more dem sell. People's Court is my biggest selling 45 in
Jamaica, and that is because it was banned. Apart from it being
what it is. And there is a tune name "Fire Pon Rome"
by Anthony B. Now when I started to play that song on the radio.
I was the first one to play that song on radio in Jamaica. And
I played it one week on the radio, and no one said anything, but
now it started to increase certain lickle vibes and then I was
told to stop playing it on the radio. When I stop playing it on
the radio. I started to read the words, because I say if I cyaan
play, I'm going go read it! As see if a man tell me seh I cyaan
read it. Anyway, that generated a lot of interest in the song.
And the song, because it was banned, it seems as if people wanted
to find out about it. There is a curiosity about things that is
banned. I don't think banning things help to suppress it. I don't
see't. Because I have experience with that, and I see it happen
to other songs. Even the other day when there were a whole heap
of slack songs, like what them call lewd songs. And they say,
not fit for airplay, people go out and try to find them lewd song
and play it. So I don't think it help. Ganja is another case in
mind. Them ban ganja and thing, and it illegal, and it don't help
[to stop it].
That reminds me of something. You're known as a 'non-ganja
smoker,' but you're not opposed to consuming the herb by eating
it?
No, no, me eat it. Nothing no wrong with it. Me grow up in a society
where me grandmother used to make tea with it. To me the worst
thing you can do with herbs is smoke it. To me, the worst thing
you can do to herb is smoke.
Just because of what it does to the body?
Smoking in no form is good for your body. A man cannot inhale
smoke. I don't see it.
It also makes it a more casual thing. It removes it from what
it could be as a sacrament.
Yea, when I just start to sight Rasta, man never used to smoke
spliff. Is chalice me see man bun. Man sit dung round a group
or a community and start to praise, read psalms and bun chalice.
See, every little minute a man take up a spliff. Spliff to me
come like a habit rather than a ritual. Is a habit. Man come in
a habit now where him haffe have a lickle spliff. When Rastafari
was saying that it a ritual, Rastafari use the herbs as a sacrament.
But now, Rastafari use the herbs as a habit. And sometimes, a
whole heap a Rasta, when them cyaan get the herbs him use cigarette
and him use Beadie, all these lickle tings dat is takin de place
of ganja now. So one wonders what this smoking is all about really.
So what do you think about chalice smoking? Does that have
a proper role still?
That's what I'm saying. I a say, the role of the ganja was in
the chalice. It wasn't in the Rizzla paper. The role of the ganja
was in chalice. Rizzla is a lickle hippy ting, where a mon roll
up a lickle joint when him feel a habit fe smoke. Him don't have
no semblance of rituals in it. For instance now, you see some
mon roll up, him take tobacco and put inna de spliff. What is
that all about? That is not a ritual. That is a habit. That don't
have nothing fe do with Rastafari sitting and praising Jah and
opening him meditation to a higher heights. It has something fe
do with him have a bad habit. And the bad habit him don't want
to smoke cigarette, him smoke ganja. When him can't get the ganja
him used beadie or anything else.
Is there a ritualistic way to consume it or [eat] it that way?
I don't see ritual. Ritual is a means to open up the higher consciousness.
Iyah seen seh, one supposedly can find that higher consciousness
inna him levels as a normal ordinary person, because we're not
searching for God. Is not God we search for. We a search for we
inner being. We inna self. So, if you cyaan find ya inner self
as you are, then there's no inner self to be found. That is how
I see it.
Yea, fair enough. Here's something that comes up from African-American
deejays who play reggae. One specifically wanted me to ask you
this question cause he struggles trying to get Africans in America
to respond to the music, to get the message to them. He plays
the music on the radio and finds it's more white people who listen
and come to the shows. Now, there's a concept, originally it seemed
like this music [reggae] came
as music for Black liberation, but then it got either interpreted
or it got taken as a unity music for all races. And so it has
a lot of different concepts in it. I wonder if you could speak
to that broad range of ideas.
Yea, well, you see music is music and man cyaan really define
which music is which music until you listen to it still, but the
music is really a people crying out, black people crying out to
be heard about them situation, social, politically, and religious.
I guess a lot of people identify with it, black and white, because
most people is oppressed. But then the sentiments is mostly Black.
So the question is now, how come if it is black, so much white
people rally to it. Is the marketing. The marketing of the music
was not marketed amongst black people. Plus black people in America
is isolated from the mainstream of the music. So black people
is kind of what you call indigenously with black music in America,
jazz, rhythm and blues and ting. So all other music to black people
in America seem to be outside music, calypso, reggae and ting.
Whereas white people get the opportunity in the mainstream fe
listen to most of what is happening, so they adopt to this music.
They rally round to the Jamaican. Is long time, even from ska,
cause if you notice now, is mostly white people play ska. Well,
you see ska is coming outta a kind of experience. . . First, white
people have this way of trying to grasp culture, to become part
of the culture, whereas black people feel now, even in Jamaica,
Jamaican people is Jamaican ting dem a deal with. People resent
hip-hip fe come into dem ting. Same way in America. The black
people feel dem seh, reggae is an outside ting and dem feel threatened
if it come into them ting. So is a kind of 'keep back dat' until
big major companies, which is also white now, open it up. But
they don't open up what the music is about to the black people.
They open the decadence of the music. And the decadence of the
music is what influence Black America. You see Bob Marley, Peter
Tosh and all these mon, influence white America. Them never influence
Black America. What influence black America now is Shabba Ranks,
Beenie Man and these deejays. Which to me now, that is the part
of the music that I would prefer not to be international. Because
when Bob Marley and these mon was making music, there was no big
record company there to promote them.
There was Island?!
Yea, but there was no Epic and CBS and ting. The advent of Shabba
and these man now, which the music take a different turn now.
You see all these artists was being signed up. And these artists
now get fused with what black America was listening to, which
is hip-hop, so black America start to accept hip-hip. But now,
black America is doing the dancehall music, so the big record
companies don't need fe sign up the Jamaican artists again, because
they can go for a youth inna Harlem and inna east LA fe do the
same ting weh Shabba dem a do. So that take back seat again. But
we see that there is a certain openness to culture even to the
point of wanting to assimilate the culture and then use it against
the same people who [are from] this culture by white people in
America.
Give me an example of that.
Well, for instance now, you sign up a artist who is supposed to
be saying tings and you tell him say bwai, this nah go sell. Is
not culture you a sell, is records, so therefore now you haffe
go drop your culture fe deal with the sales of records. That is
making the music dormant. Big white record companies are not interested
in culture. They interested in sales of records, so the culture
is not what they want to sell. And if the culture seem to be a
culture that can facilitate change, they're not going to partake
of it.
What do you think about the success over time of Heartbeat
Records? They don't suppress any culture.
Heartbeat Records is not a major record company.
True, but that's where you find true reggae.
Most record companies in America is white companies, but what
we're saying is that the culture, you see, a million seller, there
is no number one reggae tune in America that is done by a Jamaican.
Every Jamaican that do a tune that goes to number one is a fusion.
We're talking from like Maxi Priest. Maxi Priest tune name "Close
To . . ." what it name? . . . was not reggae. The only true
reggae that go to number one was UB40, "Breakfast In Bed."
And now you have a next dancehall tune that go number one with
Snow. Shabba Ranks tune wha go number one was fusion. So you still
don't have a number one reggae tune from a Jamaican, who produce,
who create the music. One would haffe look in I mind now, how
could that be? How is it that so much reggae tune come out of
Jamaica and you never have a hard-core Jamaican, singing a Jamaican
tune that go number one pon de mainstream? You ask the question,
one ask the question, so if really these white liberal record
companies was really doing something for the culture. It would
be portrayed within the charts. Now when you look on the American
hip-hop scene now. Any hip-hip tune will sell millions and go
number one, because it is American already. And there is a way
to sell music here. And even if the music is derogatory in the
hip-hop scene, it's all about making money. It's about marketing.
It's not about the art form. It's about making money. So if a
man go out deh and say him going to go shoot a police or rape
a woman, and dem see that can make money, them going to make it
go number one. That is the heights of American capitalism by middle
class white men that run the whole business. But when you look
on the whole thing, you see how it could a really suppress one
ting and rise up the next ting if it want to. Bob Marley go through
because him done gone through already. If Bob Marley was alive
today, Bob Marley wouldn't be as big as how Bob Marley is today.
Because first of all the music would a confuse him with the dancehall
ting. He wouldn't have no place inna Jamaican society, and then
them would a say, 'bwai this Rastaman yah with him dreadlocks
a flash all over de place an talk bout Africa.' Ya nah see't?
It's almost like a novelty now. Him is dead, what can he do now?
The music live on. The music don't change nothing really. I mean
individuals, but things get worse really, when you look pon it.
The progress of black people seems to be stepping two steps back
rather than three step forward when you look on the whole scheme
of the whole thing.
The only example I can think of where a Jamaican artist recently
had a shot on a major release in the United States was the Mystic
Revealers last album called This One's For Jah. And the label
was Mesa [distributed by Atlantic]. And they were also dealing
with Steel Pulse at the same time. And they also took a Mikey
Bennett compilation with Michael Rose, Freddie McGregor, Coco
Tea, and Bunny Ruggs called Grafton 4 By 4.
But nothing come of the albums . . .
No, in fact they may be dropping out of reggae entirely.
Nothing become of the albums, because you see the illusion. .
. They don't use the music already now. Dancehall music was what
was supposed to be it, because them pump a lot of money in it
and them make a whole heap of money in it. But then now, is some
youth from Jamaica. . .
I want to touch back now on the exposure of the culture music
to black America. A lot of it comes, it's not all through mainstream
radio, that's one avenue, but the underground, independent, the
college radio, the community radio . . .
Yea, but it was exposed by the mainstream. Shabba Ranks was mainstream.
And Shabba Ranks was the one who black America, the youth them,
start to look at.
Why, if there's a deejay here in DC who is on a small radio
station who plays roots reggae, and I'm sure there are somewhere,
then why doesn't that get across.
Because him doesn't control the mainstream. For instance me now,
I was made known by the college stations in America. College stations
used to play Mutabaruka. But Mutabaruka was played by college
stations and college youth them listen to it. And it was there.
Mutabaruka sell nuff records in America, but it is not mainstream.
But it would make a difference now if . . . For instance, let
me give you a good example of a tune. Ini Kamoze make a tune pon
a compilation album, right, "Hotstepper." And the tune
was there pon the compilation, and some guy take it and start
to play it pon a mainstream station and boom, the tune sell a
million. And Ini Kamoze get big record deal. Now, Ini Kamoze a
push culture. But Ini Kamoze album now is culture album. You don't
hear nothing more about Ini Kamoze album them again, because it
is not what the big record companies see. As a matter of fact,
they railroad it! Is almost like them a railroad a ting. Like
these Jamaican Rasta youth a talk bout weh dem a see bout 'burn
down Babylon.' Them don't wan hear that. Them want to hear something
that a hip-hop youth would a sing, bout woman, gun, ghetto, certain
way. Dem don't want dem a tell you say, 'bwai, right now, America
system is a fraud, and the pope is this and that.' White people
hear that, them listen to it, but them don't want it to be what
it's supposed to be because that can be a serious thing.
Because they're invested in the system. If you're invested
and you're part of the system . .
It's ridiculous. I wouldn't a invest inna de pope tings if it
come on Jamaica. If the pope make a record, I nah go invest in
it! (laughs). I'd a try railroad it! (laughs). I'd railroad it
Jamaica! Yea, you haffe look pon it dahweh deh.
---
There's something I want to get your perspective on. It's more
about Jamaican culture than music. This craze that's going on
about the football team, the Reggae Boyz. How do you feel about
that?
That is the biggest thing happen to Jamaica since reggae music.
That soccer thing is the biggest thing happen since reggae music.
Not since Bob Marley has Jamaica got so prominent. I was in Europe
the other day. I did twenty shows in about eight different countries,
and that was what was happening -- the Reggae Boyz. That is a
phenomenon.
Good for Jamaica?
Yea mon! It good for Jamaica. It's the truth. It's since, you
hear about Marlene Ottey. You hear about all these athletics.
You hear about Shabba Ranks. But I tell you, Bob Marley did the
greatest thing for Jamaica in this time. And not since Bob Marley
has Jamaica received so much from so little. I tell you, it is
a phenomenon. I mean the other day we come yah so inna de football.
Fifty-thousand people inna de stadium, and even the American,
some white Americans behind me was freaking out. Dem cyaan believe
say, is almost like them say, 'shit, these little natives come
here and draw!' That is the feeling ya a get from them. 'Who is
this lickle country that come a America, come and draw with big,
big America in front of 50-thousand people.' We go a England last
week. We beat one and draw with the next. Brazil, we draw with
Brazil! The biggest football team. I hear that and I did freak
out. Yea, that is something else. I hope it maintain itself.
What kind of manifestation have you seen in the music, music
about the football team. I know Fred Locks did a tune . . .
There is so much music in Jamaica now about the Reggae Boyz. The
Reggae Boyz song them come like festival song. I tell you, the
Reggae Boyz song them come like festival song. You have dozens
of [songs]. They have this one tune that is a compilation of different
different artists that is being promoted as the Reggae Boyz song,
but nearly every artist do a Reggae Boyz song inna Jamaica right
now. Is come like a festival thing. So June going to be something
else in France.
Lot of people will go over to that?
Yea mon! Wha?! Yea mon, a whole heap of people go a France mon.
A lot of people who can't afford it go a France. . . Ya a listen
to people who is hardened footballers and them a say, bwai, them
love it. Them love how the Jamaicans them a gwan. I deh a Milan
and hear Italian youth a say Jamaica them a go cheer for [laughs].
Them want Jamaican tee-shirt. Everybody a tell you a please send
a Reggae Boyz tee-shirt for them and all them weh deh. Is a ting.
Now that Jamaica has stepped onto that world stage in football,
you know all the youth are going to try that much harder to be
better football players.
That is what is happening now. You see the problem I have with
these things now is that every youth inna Jamaica right now want
to be a deejay. Every youth inna Jamaica going want be a footballer.
What happen to chemist and scientist and all dem ting deh. We're
going to turn out a generation of deejays. If you look pon all
the deejay them now, them bring the son pon stage. Them a bring
them daughter pon stage. I mean, what is that about? Wha'ppen
to mechanics and welders and scientists.
Everybody wants to be a star . . .
Terrible. What happen to the Sun? The Sun brighter than the stars.
It's a weird thing. I wouldn't want my youth them go turn poet
right now. No, them must go study. My daughter do electronics.
I love that, fe know seh my daughter and say she want do electronics.
That is good.
Another current thing that's going on in the world. What do
you have to say about the President of the United States going
to Africa?
Well, is an obvious thing. America is now turning them eyes pon
how them can control the economics in Africa fe benefit them.
It just simple. It's all about economics and power. The French
have a big foothold in Africa. So there is going to be a war between
the French and the Americans to see who can manipulate and control
most of the economy in Africa. America give more things to South
Africa then Eastern Europe. There is more aid to South Africa
than inna Europe from America. It just a whole part of spreading
America's wings globally to deal with economics and power. It
don't have nothing fe do with helping Africa. It has something
fe do with how we can now . . . Japan look like now, it done gwan
away. Or China seem not to be helping out the situation. Russia
is by themselves. The French don't want have nothing fe do with
America really. Cause everything America do them oppose it. Even
with the Saddam Hussein thing. So, Africa. Them control the Caribbean
with them Caribbean initiatives and them IMF [International Monetary
Fund] plan. So what else is there to do now but go to Africa.
Africa is the last place now that every mon a go turn them eye
to. That is why the Rastaman is so relevant in his prophetic outlook
pon tings. Africa is the fruit basket of the world, even though
Africa is [continent] where the most suffering is. We know why
the suffering is there, and we know how it is that it is the fruit
basket of the world. Human existence start inna Africa. The whole
slavery thing a go forward to Africa. Is who going control Africa
is the most important thing in the new millennium. Very important
place that. That is why the Rastaman always been saying 'Africa,
Africa.' Marcus Garvey been saying Africa, because him understand
that. Even Haile Selassie say from inna the 60s, "Africa
has passed its Armagideon." Africa Armagideon was the slave
trade. But the only place Africa can move is from low to high.
The only place America and all these European countries can move
is from high to low. We see that inna the Roman Empire. We see
that inna the Greek Empire, the Persian Empire, the British Empire.
So America now is the place. America has reached its zenith. There
is no where else America can go but go back down now. So you must
have places right now, and these places is going to rise up now
out of the decadence of humanity, according to how people look
on it, and this is Africa. Africa is going to be the focal point
and the focus of most of these big nations now that is searching
for serenity, economic power, stability fe them economy.
What do you mean by serenity?
I mean 'calm.' People want to find peace inna dem self, so them
going to have to turn to African philosophy -- African ideas about
humanity. They want economics. They going to haffe go turn now
to Africa, because Africa now is almost like a virgin when it
come on to exploitation. Even though it has been exploited minerally.
There is other things there to be exploited still, that these
big companies and big multinationals still don't ever touch yet.
So they are going now to find out what can we do? The Germans
is there. The Germans is in South Africa. Belgium, them buying
up land. The British and the French is in North Africa. The English
is in West Africa. Africa is going to be the place now that everybody
focus pon.
But how can Africa resist this . . .
Africa haffe say, 'white supremacy is a detriment to them total
existence.' Because that is what it is all about. It is spreading
white supremacy. Most of these African leaders don't even understand
that.
Right, they have the colonial mentality.
Yea, them have this colonial mentality, them want to go to Paris
and drink wine. And then them exploit Africa, because of this
colonial mentality. So we need fe get out this white supremacy
attitude out of these African leaders. Get some new thinkers.
Some people have said there's not as much Africentrism among
Africans as there is among Jamaicans. . .
No, because the Africans somehow feel that they are just Africans.
They wasn't slaves. I guess, who feels it knows it. When you live
inna de belly of the beast, you seem to want to free yourself
more from the beast. McDonalds and Kentucky and Burger King and
them ting deh is hardly in Africa. But when it in Africa now,
you going go see how the Africans them react to it. And then it
may be too late. So it's we out here. . . you see, Haile Selassie
again says, "Africa await its creators." Haile Selassie
say that. "Africa await its creators." The creators
that [he] was talking about is those who were dispersed into this
part of the world. Is we in this part of the world have to go
to Africa.
Didn't Marcus Garvey say it would take an African from the
West to redeem Africa?
Yea, Africa for Africans. So we a say now, is we. I mean we cyaan
sit down yah so and be complacent. You see you have black people
yah so now in America feel like seh 'this is it.' And them wear
African clothes and talk black and ting, but when you talk bout
going to Africa. . . that is the most important. That is why Rastafari
to me is so important and relevant. Is for years Rasta been saying
this: "Say watcha mon, we wan go Africa." And even Utopian
as it may sound, but is we have to go to Africa to make Africa
the Mount Zion that we talk about inna we mind. The heaven that
we speak of . . . I don't know nothing about no heaven, you know.
My heaven is Africa. And even if Africa is this Burundi-type looking
place you see pon the TV, is there I want to go. Because I know
seh, out of that, the sweet is the sweet must come. Yuh nuh see't?
And we don't see no sweetness again in this part of the world.
I no see no sweetness on-yah so. Me can get up everyday and do
certain things freely in a certain way, but pon a long term ting,
like how these guys was looking on it. Cecil Rhodes and dem mon
dem sit down and plan tings, not for yesterday [or] tomorrow,
but for 100 years down the line. Now them can control everything.
That is how black people haffe dweet. Black people haffe look
100 years down the line. If I do something now, how it going to
affect the people fifty years from now, twenty years from now.
That is how we haffe look pon it. So if I do something yah so.
How I going to make a difference in Africa itself for the benefit
of African people?
Are you going to continue to stay in Jamaica? Or do you plan
actually to move to Africa.
No, me haffe go Africa, Rasta. Me haffe go Africa. Man will always
be going to and fro, but me haffe have something in Africa. You
see me go there so much time yah so now, me a seh but wait, alright
now we a talk, action time now. We haffe find something fe do
in Africa, Rasta. Africa await its creators. We nah fe get come
off of that. Haile Selassie say that. "Africa await its creators."
The creators is me. Is I Him a talk bout. I take it personal.
What I a do inna Jamaica, I mean you cyaan give up a continent
fe an island, Rasta. Jamaica is over 100-odd miles long. You know
how long it take you fe travel from South Africa to Cairo? Pon
a train if there is a train or a car? Days, months . . . yuh nuh
see't? I travel around Jamaica in five hours, four hours.
As far as spreading your message, have you ever looked into
getting the Cutting Edge syndicated?
Bwai, the Cutting Edge is syndicated! When I say syndicated, is
the most taped program inna Jamaica (laughs!). I know, I know,
I know. People show interest but them never follow. I hear it
pon radio. I go a England and I hear people play it pon radio.
In Italy I hear mon a play it pon radio. As a matter of fact,
I do some interview inna Europe the other day. And everybody a
show off pon me, say them have a tape of the Cutting Edge and
them play it. Actually, it has never been syndicated, but unofficially,
it's selling in record shops like cassette. We go inna different
record store and I see them a sell Cutting Edge.
I play pieces on my show.
Yea, everybody do it! I tell you something else, in England, the
way dem a play it pon the radio, unabridged, with all the advertisements!
(laughs) I remember one time we deh a Italy, a guy come inna de
place selling the Cutting Edge cassette with all me picture pon
the cassette, and the title, what I was talking about, the date
of everything. And the sister I was with, she just [pick] up everything,
bring inna a deh bus, and say, 'look yah! Inna Italy!' But is
a phenomenon. The program deh. It really surprise I still fe see
that everywhere I go, people have it. Plus we play music that
is hardly played pon the radio in Jamaica. We have this world
beat outlook. So we play music, not just reggae.
That's why I gave you that African music [and copies of The
Beat].
I wan tell you is one of the best magazine throughout the place.
When it come to evaluating music, cause most of the tune I read
[about] in magazine, me have them. And me hear some writers that
can write bout it, [and they write] the same thing me feel bout
it. So me like a magazine weh a show you black music from all
over the place, not just reggae, reggae, reggae. You see, some
of them people is hypocrite. Because some of them a review record
and just choose reggae, just choose Jamaica. Them don't want tell
you exactly what them feel about it. I find that with a whole
heap of them reggae magazines. Them don't want tell you seh, 'this
a foolishness,' because somehow them might meet the artist, and
them a go loose favor with the artist. When you look pon the different
music weh dem cover, and this is not a promotion for the magazine
either, but is like how it structure out. It like what me into.
Me can look inna it and know seh bwai, me no seh that breddah
have a next album, cause me may have a one album by a artist,
but me no see him have a next album. Me in Jamaica, me wan keep
up with it. Me go out there and mek find it. Me just a read one
[about] Peru, the black music of Peru, and when me look pon de
sista [Dera Tompkins], she did have it. Me read the magazine and
me see it in deh, and when me look in her collection, me see it.
Obviously make me go up deh an buy it now. So it help.
I'm glad to know it's well received.
Yea mon, me read it. Me don't read it for the reggae. Me read
it fe de world beat music. Because the reggae to me. You see,
me no limited. Reggae music to me is just a good music weh, we
do certain tings. Me don't see myself as a reggae artist.
Yea, you incorporate all [black] styles.
I don't know if I wan get labeled as a reggae artist. Me is a
one who a use anything that is necessary fe fulfill this track
weh me deh pon. Black consciousness, black liberation.
You want to be labeled as an African artist . . .
Me want [be labeled] as an African, not just an artist, yea mon,
me is a Rastamon. Me is a Rastamon, just dat.
One more subject, because Roger Steffens wanted me to ask you
about this, and I noticed it when I listened to some Cutting Edge
programs from several years ago. You spent a lot of time and maybe
you still do, pushing Louis Farrakahn. You played his music, but
some people feel that his message is divisive.
I no feel so. No mon. I play Malcolm X too. I spend a whole time
pon {?}. I spend a whole time pon Marcus Garvey. So it go. I don't
feel seh Farrakahn divisive. Farrakahn a deal with black liberation
in America fe black people. So a lot of his sentiments may not
be shared with people because them on another level. I a look
pon it from a black perspective. To me Farrakahn is doing a good
work fe black people in America. I may not agree with him Muslim
vibe, but then again I nah go make the religion separate.
The comment was made because I never felt that Garvey or Malcolm
X, after Malcolm X went to Mecca, were talking black liberation
but not at the expense of anyone else.
No, well you never read Marcus Garvey yet?
Marcus wrote a lot of things. I haven't read everything.
The hitch weh people have with Farrakahn is about him Jewish ting.
If you feel seh Farrakahn is anti-semitic, according to how them
put it . . . You haffe read Marcus Garvey fe know how Marcus Garvey
feel bout Jews. It a serious ting. Farrakahn is a product of Elijah
Mohammed. Mohammed is product of Marcus Garvey. Elijah Mohammed
was a UNIA follower. Malcolm X parents, Marcus Garvey followers.
Marcus Garvey was the basis of all of these tings. Tell Roger
Steffens seh, he must read the Life and Lessons of Marcus Garvey.
I don't remember the page or pages, but Marcus Garvey have some
really anti-Jewish sentiments. But yea, Farrakahn to me a black
leader. And we nah go exempt black leaders. White people can't
come tell me who I must look pon as leader. Because white people
give me Jesus over the years and I say Jesus has totally wreaked
havoc inna de mind of black people. So white people can't come
turn around and tell me who we must uphold as leaders because
of them sentiments. Because if you don't like Farrakahn because
of him Jewish sentiments then you would have to [not] like Marcus
Garvey. Is the Jews them get Marcus Garvey out of America. Them
trump up the charges them gainst him. And I can't repeat what
Marcus Garvey seh, but you haffe go read it. One of these days
when I see you again, go through the Life and Lessons of Marcus
Garvey by Robert Hill. There is a next book named Message to the
People by Tony Martin. If Roger Steffens feel that Farrakahn is
anti-Jew and I shouldn't see Farrakahn, then him have to say the
same thing about Marcus Garvey, because Marcus Garvey worse than
Farrakahn when it come onto Jewish sentiments. And that was one
of the reasons why the Jews them set up gainst Marcus Garvey fe
get him out of America.
Roger Steffens and I are of the same complexion. And we have
trouble with things that divide. . .
Well I have trouble with white people divide! (laughs!) Is white
people divide the ting! (laughs)
Yea (laughing), but conscious white people fight against that
all our lives. And it's troubling when I see Louis Farrakahn telling
me that I am derived from some evil scientist.
Well, me no see that. Me no see that. You see what I say now,
the Muslim doctrine and me don't work out, but me nah go throw
him off. And there is so much thing me hear people say, and not
everything me agree with.
Well, I respect him to the maximum for uniting black people
in Washington several years ago. .
Nah everything Marcus Garvey say me agree with, but me nah cross
off Marcus Garvey.
Of course, there's no human being, except for you maybe Haile
Selassie, that you can agree with on everything.
True, true. But part of it now is that I cyaan inna a dis time
now make white people decide for me who I must look upon.
I would never tell you that, but I had to ask the question.
Yea mon, me no have no feelings about it. Me just say is how me
see it. We spend much time pon Farrakahn because Farrakahn say
some tings is very important for black people hear inna Jamaica.
Just like we play Malcolm X. We play Marcus Garvey. There is so
much things we do with that program. We play some Buddhist priests
or monks. 'Why Muta play dat ting deh?' Rastamon say that to me.
Me a share Osho sentiments and all them ting deh, but Osho
is a great mon.
I gotta go!
[I left Dera's house at 11:25 for an 11:40 train to the airport.
I missed it. And missed my plane. It was worth it]
Copyright 1998 Carter Van Pelt
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